2nd Amendment Discussion



  • @jammyjaybird You are, of course, cherry picking and oversimplifying statistics to fit your narrative. Based on death and injury statistics, get back to us once you ban cell phones: https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/03/gun_control_nope_teenagers_need_cell_phone_control.html

    This isn’t England, Australia, Mexico (we’ll get back to Mexico) or Europe. How about France? France is listed by gunpolicy.org as a restrictive nation for private gun ownership (Source: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/france). Neighboring Belgium is also a restrictive nation (Source: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/belgium). In 2015 alone there were more mass shooting casualties in France there than there were in the United States during the entire time Obama was in office (Source: https://crimeresearch.org/2017/02/france-suffered-more-casualties-murders-and-injuries-from-mass-public-shootings-in-2015-than-the-us-has-suffered-during-obamas-entire-presidency-508-to-424-2/). Where did many of the guns come from? Belgium. And they weren’t semi-auto “assault weapons” (which is a made up term by the media to sound scary). No, the perpetrators used fully automatic assault rifles. Which were illegal. There was no one armed that could immediately respond. Not even the police. That’s gun control in action for you. Compare that with the man who stopped the church shooting in Sutherland Springs, TX with an AR-15: https://www.truthrevolt.org/news/reminder-former-nra-instructor-armed-ar-15-stopped-tx-church-shooting

    So let’s look at Europe’s statistics versus the United States: https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/ If you like foreign countries’ gun control policies then move to a foreign country. Otherwise you will have to tolerate our Second Amendment and our so-called “gun culture” because despite all the left wing histrionics to the contrary, we are not giving up our guns. Fun fact: the NRA has now topped six million members! Keep up the good work recruiting Emma Gonzalez, David Hogg and every other leftist out there!



  • @jammyjaybird yes it is. But once again more people die each year from knives and bare fists than ar 15s. Also I disagree . The second amendment was put in place so people can protect themselves from regular assailants, foreign governments, and a tyrannical federal government.



    1. When the assault weapons ban took effect in 1994, the number of people dying in mass shootings fell by 43%. After Republicans allowed the assault weapons ban to lapse in 2004, the number of gun massacres more than doubled.

    2. The Second Amendment was never intended to permit mass slaughter. It was intended to permit “a well regulated militia”.

    3. According to Gallup, 96% of Americans want universal background checks. The vast majority of gun owners are in favor of common sense gun safety laws.

    4. The NRA spent $55 million on the 2016 presidential election (half of which was apparently donated by the Kremlin). The NRA does not represent gun owners; it represents gun manufacturers, and their task is to help those manufacturers maximize profits from the sale of more weapons.



  • @boothe what a lot of people don’t get as well is that violent crime in the us is very concentrated



  • @jammyjaybird the 2nd amendment says the right to bear arms which means the founders expected civilians to potentially be as armed as any military .



  • @iattacku said in 2nd Amendment Discussion:

    But once again more people die each year from knives and bare fists than ar 15s.

    True, but I’m not trying to say that we should outlaw knives and fists (lol). I’m saying that the small portion of murder in the US that is committed 1) with AR-15s and 2) in the context of mass shootings … can be easily avoided by removing those weapons.

    We’ll always be killing one another in this country. But this particular type of mass murder has been skyrocketing, obviously, and it can be at least reduced, and hopefully stopped, by reinstituting an assault weapons ban.



  • @jammyjaybird all hey would have to do is switch over to pistols or get a rifle illegaly. And the government will not just stop at an assault weapons ban



  • @iattacku said in 2nd Amendment Discussion:

    all hey would have to do is switch over to pistols or get a rifle illegaly.

    You can’t discharge nearly as many rounds with a pistol as you can with an assault weapon. That’s my entire fucking point.



  • @jammyjaybird “AR-15s have no place in civilian life.” There are a lot of folks that agree with you. Let’s see here…

    Vladimir Putin: The regulation of guns in Russia is categorized as restrictive http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/russia

    Kin Jung Un: In North Korea, no civilians may lawfully acquire, possess or transfer a firearm or ammunition http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/north-korea

    Xi Jinping: In China, civilians are not allowed to possess any firearms http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/china

    Raúl Castro: The regulation of guns in Cuba is categorized as restrictive http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cuba

    And, if he were still around, I am sure that SS Brigadefuhrer Jurgen Stroop would agree with you too. See this: http://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-warsaw-ghetto-uprising.htm and this: http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/stroop.htm

    The Second Amendment is the final check and balance in our system of government whether you like it or not. The AR-15 has every place in the hands of civilians and if you really were a patriot, instead of a leftist mole, you would agree. You would even agree that we have every right to own fully automatic M-4 carbines and other military weapons, since those are applicable to militia use. Putting civilians on equal footing with the standing army is the purpose of the Second Amendment. Only a government that wants to be able to push us around with impunity attempts to disarm us. As for me, I’m not going meekly off to the ditch outside of town. But you help yourself, comrade.

    0_1526677722700_einsatzgruppen-nazi-death-squads-ww2-german-brutal-001.jpg



  • @jammyjaybird true but pistols are easier to conceal, handle, and maneuver. So it’s a trade off



  • Sorry, it looks like early reports were wrong: Apparently this kid in Texas didn’t use an assault weapon. He used his father’s pistol, shotgun, and planted pressure cooker bombs or something.

    It’s just sad. There were even armed security guards on campus, and they couldn’t stop this psycho. I don’t see any solution to these situations.

    However, I still believe that reinstituting an assault weapons ban would be good overall, especially since assault weapons have no practical civilian purpose. Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford (both Republican presidents) supported the last ban, citing public opinion.

    And before people here start misrepresenting my position with slippery slope arguments, NO, I’m not in favor of taking away any other weapons. We’re a violent country that loves its firearms; it’s our identity, and nothing will ever change that. The weight of history is too strong. But assault weapons are unnecessary for any reason except ideological ones. If you’re in favor of private ownership of AR-15s, you should theoretically be in favor of private ownership of nuclear missiles as well.



  • @jammyjaybird I don’t see a problem with private ownership of nukes . Most people wouldn’t be able to afford one anyway . And if a rich person really wanted a nuke now a days they can have one built .



  • @jammyjaybird and the ideology behind owning an assault rifle is the 2nd amendment.



  • @iattacku said in 2nd Amendment Discussion:

    @boothe that is another good topic for the religion forum. The vast majority of Christians believes that Jesus is God but from reading the gospels anytime someone compares Jesus to God he is quick to point out that God is greater than him . He also pointed out that only the father knows when the second coming will happen not him

    I and the Father are one.

    Before Abraham was, I Am.

    It is true that Jesus slapped down some bad arguments, but nowhere does he say he is not God. Rather, he was making the point that they had darn well better appreciate the gravity of what they were saying.

    Interesting topic, but for the Religion forum. I guess this forum is for arguing with Jammy.

    @jammyjaybird

    Aurora: AR-15
    Orlando: AR-15
    Parkland: AR-15
    Las Vegas: AR-15
    Sandy Hook: AR-15
    Umpqua CC: AR-15
    Waffle House: AR-15
    Texas Church: AR-15
    San Bernardino: AR-15
    Santa Fe High School: AR-15

    It’s easy to show a list of mass shootings perpetrated with AR-15s if you pull them out of the larger data set.

    But yes, AR-15s are used in a big number of mass shootings.

    1.) Most common semi-auto long rifle platform in the US (partially because the Left hates it so much, giving it ‘cred’).

    2.) Many shootings are perpetrated by the homicidal equivalents of “script kiddies” who just copy what the previous shooters did. Social proof, if you will.

    Whichever semi-auto center-fire long gun is most common will be the one most used in school shootings. Very few kids planning to do this will give up because the “go-to” platform isn’t available. They’ll just go to a new one.

    jammyjaybird

    the number of school shootings that have happened since the year 2000 around the world:
    ENGLAND: 0
    GREECE: 1
    NETHERLANDS: 1
    SPAIN: 1
    INDIA: 1
    ARGENTINA: 1
    RUSSIA: 1
    CHINA: 3
    MEXICO: 4
    AUSTRALIA: 5
    CANADA: 5
    GERMANY: 5
    SOUTH AFRICA: 5
    USA: 213

    Yep, school shootings are out of control here.

    Question is, what are the violent death rates, both shooting and non-shooting? I don’t have stats on hand but I think we can all agree that shifting a death from one category to another isn’t an improvement.

    jammyjaybird

    AR-15s have no place in civilian life.

    AR-15s are generally configured to fire 223, the civilian version of 556, which is a relatively weak round, which is why 223 is disallowed for deer hunting in many places. One reason the military used 556 is because wounding a conventional enemy removes three combatants (victim + 2 stretcher-bearers) while killing only removes one.

    US civilians will not be facing a foe under the Geneva Convention, so 223 is kind of a lousy round to standardize around, in my opinion. 308 would probably be a better choice because [insert interminable gun discussion here].

    Anyway, my main point is this: the main point of firearm ownership (as protected by 2AM at least) is to be comparably dangerous to conventional military forces. Private citizens owned cannons and used them in the War of 1812, as I recall.

    Powerful guns have a solid place in civilian life. If the AR-15 is removed, something else will take its place.

    @jammyjaybird

    When the assault weapons ban took effect in 1994, the number of people dying in mass shootings fell by 43%. After Republicans allowed the assault weapons ban to lapse in 2004, the number of gun massacres more than doubled.

    The Second Amendment was never intended to permit mass slaughter. It was intended to permit “a well regulated militia”.

    According to Gallup, 96% of Americans want universal background checks. The vast majority of gun owners are in favor of common sense gun safety laws.

    The NRA spent $55 million on the 2016 presidential election (half of which was apparently donated by the Kremlin). The NRA does not represent gun owners; it represents gun manufacturers, and their task is to help those manufacturers maximize profits from the sale of more weapons.

    Gun violence deaths started falling before the AWB and continued falling for years after the AWB sun-setted.

    Yeah, the Second Amendment was never intended to permit mass slaughter (I think laws against mass slaughter covered that). The First Amendment was never intended to permit Miley Cyrus. Both of these are the consequence of individual human agency. You seem to assume that the government is supposed to create a world where humans are structurally prevented from evil. What is a well-regulated militia? The militia is the whole of the people. Well-regulated means that we have competent weaponry.

    I don’t believe that Gallup poll for a minute. Hearsay as this is, I don’t know a single gun owner who wants that. Labeling something “common sense” doesn’t cause it to be a good idea, it’s just assuming the sale. “Common sense” only exists in an ideological framework; there is no common sense without a belief system to label it as such. I’m sure the Nazis only wanted common-sense Jew control.

    The NRA represents millions of gun owners, including me, except when they don’t go far enough or are stupid, such as when they moved against the First Amendment several years ago. They backpeddled and tried to justify themselves, which was disgusting. If they knowingly accepted campaigning money from the Kremlin then screw them – I expect my gun rights organizations to be squeaky-clean, like Everytown for Gun Safety.

    @jammyjaybird

    However, I still believe that reinstituting an assault weapons ban would be good overall, especially since assault weapons have no practical civilian purpose. Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford (both Republican presidents) supported the last ban, citing public opinion.

    Fighting tyranny is a practical civilian purpose.

    What did Reagan do right? He didn’t remove Paul Volker. That’s basically it. Screw Reagan and screw public opinion. I am not public property and neither are you.

    @jammyjaybird

    And before people here start misrepresenting my position with slippery slope arguments, NO, I’m not in favor of taking away any other weapons. We’re a violent country that loves its firearms; it’s our identity, and nothing will ever change that. The weight of history is too strong. But assault weapons are unnecessary for any reason except ideological ones. If you’re in favor of private ownership of AR-15s, you should theoretically be in favor of private ownership of nuclear missiles as well.

    Name one reason for anything that isn’t ideological.

    Also:

    And before people here start misrepresenting my position with slippery slope arguments [snip] If you’re in favor of private ownership of AR-15s, you should theoretically be in favor of private ownership of nuclear missiles as well.

    AR-15s are a neutered version of an actual military weapon designed for infantry use. Anything the infantry can use should be available for us as well. Remember: when the Constitution was written the US did not have a standing army; it called up state militias for the common defense.

    Might a renewed AWB reduce school shootings? Quite possibly, but there are multiple millions of these things out there, each with a service life of 50-100+ years. They were around before school shootings as well.

    If we really want to reduce school shootings we should address the reasons people have for doing them. Government can’t fix family, government can’t fix society, government can’t fix drugs. These are problems that only have individual solutions. All government can do is environmental control, which is what the Left wants anyway. The Left believes that human evil is (largely) a result of incorrect herd management. If they could just figure out the right levers to pull, words to use, and drugs to inject, we would be good – as they see good.

    “They’ll swing back to the belief that they can make people better.”

    Ain’t no shooting like the shooting gonna happen should they try to take these from us.

    Human rights are not a form of public policy. Human rights are not a fancy way euphemism for “public will at this moment.” Human rights exist even if every single person on earth despises or ignores them.

    I have the right to be consequential when it matters most. So do you.



  • @ransom said in 2nd Amendment Discussion:

    Anything the infantry can use should be available for us as well.

    I strongly disagree with this. That may have been true in 1787, but that is not true today. The weaponry is just too powerful.
    Thanks for the thoughtful response though.



  • @ransom this was a damn good comment



  • An ever-growing body of research consistently reaches the same conclusion: The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns.



  • Okie-dokie, @jammyjaybird has joined us here and for that I am ever so thankful. We will undoubtedly be moving the show here, now. @Ransom I cannot give you sufficient accolades for your comment. Very well put! As time permits I will address Jammy point for point. Stay tuned folks, this is about to get very interesting.



  • In the interests of an honest debate, let’s make sure we start from a common baseline: The Second Amendment to the Constitution for the United States. “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

    That was from memory, I have no need to look it up. When I was in middle school I had the benefit of a U.S. History and Social Studies teacher who happened to be a retired Army colonel. He was a very wise man and dearly loved us children. I would say he was scrupulous in his honesty and integrity (my family knew him from the community). He said something in class one day I will never forget. He explained that the Second Amendment was not put in place so you could go hunting or even to defend yourself. No. He said “The Second Amendment is the final check and balance in our system of government.”

    Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the foundation upon which I will be debating.



  • I assert that keeping and bearing arms is an individual right above all else. We, as humans, as naked apes, don’t come equipped with claws, fangs, stingers & venom or even a heavy coat of hair. We don’t have an armored carapace or quills. We as humans are actually at quite a disadvantage to many other mammals. Left out in the elements or engaged in a life or death fight, we as humans are rather fragile.

    But what we do come equipped with is the most advanced computer that man can only dream of duplicating: The Human Brain. The Human Brain is a tool for creating weapons way beyond anything we can comprehend, and in the same vein the human brain can bring compassion, charity and comfort to others.


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