2nd Amendment Discussion

  • @ransom this was a damn good comment

  • An ever-growing body of research consistently reaches the same conclusion: The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns.

  • Okie-dokie, @jammyjaybird has joined us here and for that I am ever so thankful. We will undoubtedly be moving the show here, now. @Ransom I cannot give you sufficient accolades for your comment. Very well put! As time permits I will address Jammy point for point. Stay tuned folks, this is about to get very interesting.

  • In the interests of an honest debate, let’s make sure we start from a common baseline: The Second Amendment to the Constitution for the United States. “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

    That was from memory, I have no need to look it up. When I was in middle school I had the benefit of a U.S. History and Social Studies teacher who happened to be a retired Army colonel. He was a very wise man and dearly loved us children. I would say he was scrupulous in his honesty and integrity (my family knew him from the community). He said something in class one day I will never forget. He explained that the Second Amendment was not put in place so you could go hunting or even to defend yourself. No. He said “The Second Amendment is the final check and balance in our system of government.”

    Ladies and Gentlemen, this is the foundation upon which I will be debating.

  • I assert that keeping and bearing arms is an individual right above all else. We, as humans, as naked apes, don’t come equipped with claws, fangs, stingers & venom or even a heavy coat of hair. We don’t have an armored carapace or quills. We as humans are actually at quite a disadvantage to many other mammals. Left out in the elements or engaged in a life or death fight, we as humans are rather fragile.

    But what we do come equipped with is the most advanced computer that man can only dream of duplicating: The Human Brain. The Human Brain is a tool for creating weapons way beyond anything we can comprehend, and in the same vein the human brain can bring compassion, charity and comfort to others.

  • The Human Brain is capable of conceiving and developing the most heinous devices ever seen for creating death and destruction. From cross bows to machine guns on to thermonuclear weapons, humans have thought up an almost incomprehensible array of devices designed to hurt one another and break things. Why do we do this?

    There are various reasons, but for the same reason we band together in groups, it is primarily for power. There are many people who are convinced that if everyone will just do things their way, the world will be a better place. Or worse, they see what you and your group have and they want to take it from you. Naked and unarmed against another group that is also naked and unarmed, their chances of prevailing are questionable. But when they pick up rocks and sticks, the odds have changed significantly. Now the other group must also pick up rocks and sticks and think up ways to increase their lethality and the distance over which they can be effectively delivered. What you have is an “arms race” and this has been going on for millennia.

  • The Framers of the U.S. Constitution understood that humans wish to have power over each other and will do so under threat of force. They understood that one group will attempt to empower itself over other opposing groups through numbers and superior firepower. They also understood that when the means to inflict lethal force is widely distributed amongst the population in a free state, there is a credible threat of retaliation against bad government actors should tyranny and oppression reach a tipping point. This was the key reason for the Second Amendment; the guarantee of our individual right to possess equivalent firepower to the regular army of the day.

    This brings me to @jammyjaybird’s statement “That may have been true in 1787, but that is not true today. The weaponry is just too powerful.” If that is actually the case, then a government that is “by the people, for the people” has no business with “weaponry” that is “just too powerful” either. Why do they need 16" guns on massive battleships? Or cluster bombs or depleted uranium firing 30mm cannons in the nose of A-10 Warthogs or Sarin nerve gas? And for goodness sake, what do they need intercontinental ballistic missiles capable of delivering multiple warheads for?

    The answer is simple: The projection of power and the threat of “Mutually Assured Destruction” if self defense becomes necessary. The concept is indeed MAD, but most of us here have lived under that threat our entire lives. And it all goes back to humans picking up rocks and sticks and striving to increase their range and lethality.

  • So what about the AR-15 and similar semi-automatic small arms? I have heard it argued that the Framers had no concept of such weapons? Is that true? It is not. Witness the Girandoni repeating air rifle: “…around 1780 an enterprising Tyrolean gunsmith named Bartolomeo Girandoni developed a rugged new model air rifle that was soon adopted by the Austrian military. Produced in .46-caliber, the Girandoni was a quantum leap forward in weapons technology.” Source: http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/military-history/lewis-and-clarks-girandoni-air-rifle/

    We also have the Puckle gun which was listed in a 1722 shipping manifest as a “machine gun”, well before the Second Amendment was penned. Primitive and crew served though it may have been, the concept of multi-shot rapid fire weapons is hardly new. See this: http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Puckle_gun

  • Those are just two examples of man’s thoughtful efforts to increase his superiority over other men through advanced weapons technology. There are numerous other examples, such as battery guns, being employed in combat with devastating effectiveness all the way back to 1339. Source: http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=1241 So the idea that the Framers of the U.S. Constitution could not conceive of small arms such as the AR-15 is dubious at best.

  • Another argument is that with high technology in weapons systems today, attempting to counter a modern military force with militiamen armed only with semi-automatic small arms and improvised munitions is an exercise in futility. After all, the U.S. military has armed drones, tanks, ships, radar, laser targeting systems, communications and logistics, et cetera, that we do not have as individuals. We might even hearken back to Revelation 13:4 Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? and see that it is pointless to fight the empire. And to engage their forces head on would certainly appear to be suicidal.

    But as we have seen in every modern conflict, the goal is seldom (if ever) to annihilate the populace of the targeted country or region. With no people left, there is no one to rule over and even though the conquerors have gained natural resources and territory, they have gained no additional power. Since a big part of the goal for expeditionary warfare is to subjugate the populace, there is only one timeless way to do this: “Boots on the ground.”

  • Our modern, high technology military is currently occupying Afghanistan with “Boots on the ground.” These are a primitive people compared to Rome the United States. One would think that they would simply knuckle under in the face of such overwhelming military superiority. Yet they still will not. What are their primary means of defense against a hostile invading army? Small arms. Like the USSR before them, the U.S. military is learning the hard way why Afghanistan is called “The Graveyard of Empires.” The human desire to live free and unfettered is indomitable. The drive for individual liberty will lead many of our kind to fight on well past the point that the weaker members of our species will find unreasonable.

    But without modern small arms, our choices with respect to the dictates of an occupying force and more particularly the caprice of their leaders, become comply or die. The AR-15 is our modern crossbow much as the semi-automatic handgun is our modern short sword and the high power rifle is our modern long bow. To think that the Framers intended to limit these individual weapons solely for government use shows a decided ignorance of their writings.

  • @jammyjaybird said in 2nd Amendment Discussion:

    Aurora: AR-15
    Orlando: AR-15
    Parkland: AR-15
    Las Vegas: AR-15
    Sandy Hook: AR-15
    Umpqua CC: AR-15
    Waffle House: AR-15
    Texas Church: AR-15
    San Bernardino: AR-15
    Santa Fe High School: AR-15

    Let’s expand on this list, since it targets a specific firearm that @jammyjaybird finds objectionable. You will find that handguns have been the preferred weapon for mass shootings (using two or more deaths as the standard) on the time line from the Columbine shooting in 1999 through the Hazard County Technical college shooting in 2013. Out of the 49 total mass shootings in that time frame only 12 involved all semi-automatic rifles (not just AR-15 variants), while 34 involved handguns. Of those 12 where semi-auto rifles were used, three incidents handguns were also involved. In five of the incidents the weapon type was undetermined. See this: https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0057.htm

    Jammy argues that “You can’t discharge nearly as many rounds with a pistol as you can with an assault weapon.” That statement is false. From the preceding link we see that the Virginia Tech shooter murdered 32 people exclusively with handguns. Primarily using a Glock 19, which has conventional magazines available capable of holding 33 rounds and drum magazines available with a 50 round capacity. Even when limited to 10 round magazines, a modestly trained operator can reload and resume firing a semi-automatic handgun in mere seconds. See this: https://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=glock+drum and this https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=glock 33 round magazine

  • In the case of the Parkland shooting the perpetrator, Nikolas Cruz, used 10 round magazines not “high capacity” magazines. Truth be told, the 30 round magazine is a “standard capacity” magazine for the AR-15 / M-4 platform. There are higher capacity magazines including drums available, but they tend to be unwieldy, hard to conceal, often unreliable and relatively expensive. Once again, the anti-gun crowd’s efforts to limit magazine capacity to 10 rounds make good publicity but are as ineffective in reducing mass shootings as drug laws have proven to be in reducing drug trafficking and consumption. Prohibition never works against the truly determined.

  • @jammyjaybird said in 2nd Amendment Discussion:

    An ever-growing body of research consistently reaches the same conclusion: The only variable that can explain the high rate of mass shootings in America is its astronomical number of guns.

    No, an ever growing body of left biased propaganda reaches that conclusion. All the while studiously ignoring the fact that back when we, the American public, could quite literally buy all manner of firearms (including genuine weapons of war, see this: http://americanshootingjournal.com/laughable-vintage-gun-ads/#oz52mcs6) by mail order, we did not have all these mass shootings. So what has changed? First of all, the push started in earnest to remove the moral foundation of our culture from our schools. By eliminating the Ten Commandments and basic concepts of right and wrong and replacing them with moral relativism we effectively excised the internal restraints against this type of behavior from the minds of our offspring.

    Then with the rise of the feminist movement, the vilification of “toxic masculinity” and the labeling of normal boyhood behaviors as “mental disorders”, we have attempted to suppress the expression of “maleness” in our sons. With zero tolerance policies and feel good initiatives such as the Promise Program at Parkland, we have created a hotbed for frustrated and disenfranchised young men who have been picked on and bullied unmercifully to develop into the monsters we’ve witnessed recently.

    Add psychotropic drugs to the mix to suppress normal young male behavior, categorized as Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder or what have you, in at least one out of 1000 cases (the threshold for a black box drug warning of “homicidal ideation”), you have a bunch of time bombs on your hands.

    Despite the fact that Nikolas Cruz, the Parkland shooter, had numerous prior contacts with law enforcement (both local and federal) and was reported as unstable by family, he was still able to pass a background check and purchase his weapon legally. The failure in this case was the “progressive” Promise Program that shielded criminal activities by students at Parkland from law enforcement intervention.

  • After 9/11 our motto was, “Never forget.”

    A psycho shot 500 hundred people in Las Vegas last year and the country just…forgot.
    Then a psycho shot up Parkland High School … and the country just forgot.
    We’ll forget this psycho in Texas too.

    Until one day we won’t, and there will be born a movement of moral reform (probably not legal reform, given the state of DC) that will forcefully remind people to lock up their firearms at home. Much like Mothers Against Drunk Driving in the 1960s forced people to address their own careless drunk driving, this movement will force gunowners (30% of the population) to address their own careless weapon safety habits. Americans have a long history of moral crusaders demanding reform, and this will be the next one. It won’t be us, the older people, who spearhead this movement. It’ll be the youngest generation who demand it, the ones who’ve grown up tolerating stupid “active-shooter drills” that force them to hide in the closets of their classrooms, and who resent society for forcing this ridiculousness upon them.

    A full-scale weapons seizure is the slippery-slope nightmare of gun-happy right-wingers, but it’ll never happen. There are 300 million weapons in this nation and we have a very aggressive gun culture.

    Personally, I don’t understand that gun culture, since I’m more interested in building my career and playing sports and reading books and chasing tail than I am in firing weapons – but hey everybody is welcome to pursue their passions, even if they look like walking caricatures as they do it. (BTW all my international friends are stupified by American gun culture. They cannot understand how anybody could be so passionately in love with firearms. I share that view, but to each his own.)

    Anyways, here’s my prediction: There will be a young moral reformer, most likely a shooting victim himself, who leads a full-scale social media movement to “lock up your guns at home” or to mandate use of fingerprint scanners or who knows what. Some of the Parkland kids have already tried to seize this crown, but since none of them were actually wounded, they lack moral persuasion. The reformer I envision will be a teenager whose moral authority cannot be ignored or mocked, maybe an honors student who had half his jaw blown off or something. It will be a white student too, since most gunowners are whites, and white skin and a white voice will resonate more powerfully for them.

    There could be minor legal action accomplished at the federal level (hopefully a new assault weapons ban), but since Congress can’t even tie its own shoelaces right now, I doubt it’ll happen. At the state level you’ll see a lot more action happening, maybe even neighboring states cooperating legislatively.


  • @jammyjaybird said in 2nd Amendment Discussion:

    The NRA does not represent gun owners; it represents gun manufacturers, and their task is to help those manufacturers maximize profits from the sale of more weapons.

    This is a patently false statement. We are now over 6 million strong. Over half the funding for the NRA comes from dues paying members. The rest comes from donations, some of which do come from firearms manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers. But the NRA is an actual grass-roots organization funded by people like me; it is not an artificial construct set up by billionaires to push their personal agendas. There are a lot myths circulated about the NRA. Here are ten interesting points most folks do not know: https://mic.com/articles/23929/10-surprising-facts-about-the-nra-that-you-never-hear#.hGn0cc1VW

  • Let’s contrast the truly grass-roots NRA, the oldest civil rights advocacy group in the U.S., with the astro-turf #MarchForOurLives movement that appeared to spontaneously spring up from concerned students after the Parkland school shooting.

    “March For Our Lives is created by students across the country who will no longer risk their lives waiting for someone else to take action to stop the epidemic of mass school shootings,” claims a permit application for the event in the nation’s capital. Ironically, the application for the permit was filed by Women’s March organizer Deena Katz. The Women’s March, of course, became infamous last year after one of its key leaders, Islamist Linda Sarsour, was exposed as an advocate of Sharia law for America. Other leading forces in the Women’s March include tax-funded abortion giant Planned Parenthood, which kills over 325,000 American preborn babies every year.”

    In fact #MarchForOurLives was heavily funded by wealthy leftists and the Hollywood “usual suspects” who have no problem surrounding themselves with armed men for their own protection. Let’s wait and see if any of them are so principled as to only hire unarmed security details (hint: don’t hold your breath). No, gun control is only for the rest of us, not for the elite. And the elite are determined to attempt to strip us of this fundamental human right, especially the ultra-wealthy.

    “MoveOn. org, which Soros has lavishly funded with millions in donations over the years, has sent out millions of e-mails urging people to get involved with the phony “March For Our Lives” events. On March 7, the radical Soros-backed group even boasted publicly of its role in the “student” movement, thanking its members who have “contributed to our work supporting student-led organizing” and taking on the NRA.” Yeah…grass roots alright…

    The source article is here: https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/education/item/28493-soros-backed-student-movement-against-guns-vows-revolution

    And if the New American is too “right wing” for you, here’s what BuzzFeed has to say about it: https://www.buzzfeed.com/maryanngeorgantopoulos/parkland-teens-organization?utm_term=.lwY5N8xkJ#.se6adLq7M

  • @jammyjaybird “A psycho shot 500 hundred people in Las Vegas last year and the country just…forgot.” No, many of us did not forget and still want the truth. When some uncomfortable questions started to arise about the alleged perpetrator’s connections to the government, other players that were not investigated, eye-witness accounts that ran counter to the official narrative and a lack of motive for the shooting, the media (probably encouraged by the FBI) dropped coverage. This is what happens when a government sting operation goes sour. It’s called a cover-up.

    True Pundit continued to follow it and found out some rather interesting things. My take from the very beginning was that Paddock was a paid government informant who was working with an ISIS cell (or some other unsavory characters like drug cartel members) to set up a weapons buy. One of the LVPD officers, Dave Newton, when describing Paddock’s room said "All kinds of monitors and electrical equipment he had in there. It just looked like almost a gun store.” These were all high end weapons too, no junk.

    One of the telling things is that Paddock paid off his $100,000 casino marker the Friday night before the shooting. From Wayne Allen Root who is a Vegas local and talk show host: “Paddock owed MGM $100,000. On Friday night before the massacre Paddock won $100,000 playing video poker. If he was planning to die on Sunday he certainly would have blown it on hookers and cocaine. Or bought a Maserati and had it shipped to his girlfriend. Or gambled even higher amounts with the $100,000. But that’s not what Paddock did. Instead he took the $100K and paid off his $100K MGM marker. He paid off his debt in full? Why would a crazed killer do something so responsible? Why would a suicidal man do that?” Good question.

    Here’ the 20 valid questions Root raised about this “lone nut shooter” scenario: https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/fed-up-vegas-native-asks-20-questions-about-mgm-shooting-nobody-will-answer/

    And @jammyjaybird I want you to pay close attention to Question 18: “NEVER a peep from Trump about his theories on The Vegas Massacre. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Crickets. In the almost 6 months since this terrible event, the President has never said a word…no theory…never ventured even a guess. Isn’t that strange? Out of character?” And then follow up with the links at Question 20 about potential Saudi involvement. No, we have not forgotten because we were never told the truth…

  • More on the “astro-turf” nature of anti-gun organizations: https://thepoliticalinsider.com/march-for-our-lives-funding/

  • @jammyjaybird “Personally, I don’t understand that gun culture, since I’m more interested in building my career and playing sports and reading books and chasing tail…” I see that a lot with the more urban members of the U.S. populace, although it’s not universally so (I’ve bought guns from big city shooters and collectors). It’s one more piece of the huge cultural divide that continues to expand between urban / suburban America and rural America. I’m also interested in building my career (actually winding it down and starting a small business now), engaging in sports such as weight lifting, archery, fishing and yes, shooting and reading books. Having been successfully married (admittedly the second time) for nearly 28 years now, “chasing tail” is of no concern to me. But defending my loved ones, my neighbors and what I have worked for all these years is still very important to me.

    Frankly, when it comes to multiple threats, an “M4gery” (an AR-15 build for CQB use) is a highly effective defensive weapon. It’s light, accurate, low recoil and highly ergonomic; a weapon that lends itself to instinctive shooting very well. Hence the full auto counterpart, the M4 carbine, being so popular with soldiers and police. It is an ideal militia weapon and that’s the very reason the left wants rid of it. It creates a credible threat of reprisal in the hands of the populace if the government steps too far over the line of tyranny.

    And I also understand your position that you only want to ban so-called “assault weapons”, but we all know that’s a bait & switch proposal. Due to the “holes” the Clinton “assault weapons” ban had in it, other than cosmetics, the same weapons were still on the market, just sans pistol grips, flash suppressors and bayonet lugs (like “Fix bayonets! Charge!” is still a thing). So the next iteration of the ban will encompass everything the gun haters can think of and will essentially ban every semi-auto rifle and carbine with a detachable box magazine. Then they will come after semi-auto handguns. Read their rhetoric and look at the history of “gun control” (which the NRA has compromised on and even supported in the past). It is indeed a slippery slope and the intention of the left is total confiscation of all privately held firearms.

    If you doubt that, then consider this from back in 2004: "In the House, HR2038 has been introduced by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y. Instead of a “reauthorization” of the earlier ban, McCarthy wants to ban millions more guns and begin a backdoor national registration scheme. All told, HR2038 is a giant step closer to the goal stated by the assault-weapons ban sponsor, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., on CBS “60 Minutes”: “If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them – Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in – I would have done it.” Source: https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/openforum/article/2nd-Amendment-Mr-and-Mrs-America-turn-them-2813319.php

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