Ainigmaris Thales last edited by
@boothe The reason that “healthcare” is as expensive as it is right now is because of all the government intervention. You can accurately track the rise in healthcare costs with the increase in government intervention. Even more telling, the fact that everyone has gotten used to getting their healthcare insurance from their employer rather than buying it themselves is because of government intervention.
Having your healthcare premium come out of your salary before it even gets to you, and having your healthcare bills negotiated and paid by your insurance company without you having any control over it – that means you don’t ever deal with the costs first hand. You can’t really shop for a cheaper doctor, or spend more of your own money to get a better doctor, or make a deal with a doctor or clinic that you will bring your whole family there for a reduced rate, or use any of the usual free market tactics that people use to save themselves money or get more of what they actually want.
The skyrocketing costs of healthcare and health insurance are not going to be solved by more government intervention, they will only be made worse. Much worse. Obamacare is a primary example.
And I don’t care if its Republican intervention or Democrat intervention. They are all the same. The truth is, all of them are bought and paid for by special interests. The congressmen have no idea what is in any of these bills that they pass… they just push the bills that their big donors and lobbyist tell them to push.
@ainigmaris-thales That sir is the truth. American “healthcare” is a web of corporate cartels designed to keep people sick and paying in to the system. I am old enough to remember having a family doctor in private practice. We knew him personally. He charged $20 for an office visit which was the going rate in Tidewater, Virginia at that time. I broke my arm when I was twelve and the whole thing, x-rays, cast, follow up visits didn’t even total $150. Granted, that was 1971 but even adjusted for inflation that does not equate to the price of an office visit now. The last time I went to the doctor was a year ago. The basic office visit was $250 excluding tests. If we go by the Minneapolis Fed’s inflation calculator it should have cost $121. If anything with modern technology it should be even cheaper, since efficiency and productivity are higher now.
But it’s not cheaper because as you so astutely point out, there is no free market competition forcing them to compete by both improving quality and lowering prices. Add that to the fact that when an “indigent” person comes in, they have to treat that patient and someone is going to pay for it. The healthcare provider isn’t going to just “eat” the cost, they are going to spread it out over everyone else’s bills. And that includes costs incurred by those who have insurance, PPOs, HMOs, Medicare and Medicaid or any plan that has negotiated a lower rate. Sure, they pay out, but not enough to satisfy the stockholders. So that will be passed on the rest of us in higher copays and out-of-pocket expenses.
As more mergers and acquisitions occur, such as CVS acquiring Aetna, the industry leaders will become bigger and more powerful allowing them to consolidate their stranglehold on the regulatory agencies and legislators. The corruption will increase as costs climb and quality of care goes down. The major corporate players were the ones driving the Affordable Care Act. This wasn’t done out of compassion for the poor as Jammy views it from his delusional worldview. The ACA was put there to increase market share for the insurance companies. It is a veritable government gun to our heads forcing us to buy a product, in this case health insurance, whether we want it or not. And putting those of us who are healthy on the hook to pay for others who all too often are unhealthy due to poor lifestyle choices.
As you point out it’s government intervention that is to blame. Whether it’s Team A or Team B, we’re still getting gang banged. And the healthcare cartels laugh about it all the way to the bank. Doing away with the individual mandate is an overall good thing because it lessens government involvement. We need to get government completely out of healthcare and let the free market chips fall where they may. Otherwise we will end up like Canada. Except there won’t be anyone south of our border with state of the art equipment and facilities to send our sick and dying to treatment like they do.
jammy last edited by
@boothe Lol your position is quite clear. And you didn’t need to write a screed to explain yourself. You’re a classic small-government Republican. I’ve known, and debated, hundreds of people like yourself.
It’s clear that you don’t want to be forced to participate in medical insurance. The problem is that, financially, a national insurance program doesn’t work UNLESS everybody participates in it. This was the conclusion that the Republican Heritage Foundation arrived at in the late nineties, when it promoted the individual mandate. (Yes, a Republican group.) This was the case that was made by Mitt Romney, who implemented it in the state of Massachusetts. (Another Republican.) He got the idea from Newt Gingrich, Speaker of the House. (Another Republican.)
Your solution – to let the private sector work its so-called magic – shows zero understanding of the history of health insurance in this country.
This is my last response to health insurance debate, because we’re going in circles here, and you all know your minds, and I definitely know mine. Let me just end by saying that my position is motivated by practical sympathy – how do we provide a better life for the greatest number of citizens? Thomas Malthus asked this same question two hundred years ago. Your position, however, is motivated by political ideology – how can I keep all government out of my life as much as possible?
My position seeks to preserve as much human life as possible. That should be especially doable in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world.
Your position, however, seeks to preserve only your own life, particularly the health of your wallet.
Another problem is that your small-govt political position often ignores the fact that very often the villains are the private sector. This is particularly true in the case of for-profit medical insurance companies. I know that you don’t want to discuss that, because it’s the Achilles heel in all conservative arguments. But it is true nonetheless.
Anyways, have a Merry Christmas, and try to remember the 2 million unfortunate poor children who lose their health insurance in January as a result of your political ideology. (CHIP loses its funding on January 19, thanks to Republican-led Congress.) You probably won’t remember them, because your own children are the only ones that matter.
@jammyjaybird That is another straw man argument with some ad hominem mixed in. Our country was so strong fur such a long time because we believed in self reliance.
Also, almost all companies, even health insurance companies are for profit. With the enormous risks insurance companies take on, it’d be foolish to be a nonprofit and you’d see health insurance companies going out of business much more often.
A more reasonable approach to dropping both health insurance and healthcare costs without infringing on the freedoms of its citizens would be to allow companies to compete over state lines, enact tort reforms so doctors aren’t having to hire lawyers for every frivolous lawsuit, and to also allow insurance companies to sell different types of insurances instead of making them cover certain things that particular groups don’t need, like maternity care packaged into deals for single men that they can’t opt out of.
Ainigmaris Thales last edited by
@jammyjaybird You are literally the only person in this thread that cares about the whole “Democrat” and “Republican” labels thing. You are desperate to make it about D vs R. No one else cares at all. You are the only ones who keep tingtbing that up, except those of us pointing that your D vs R shtick is meaningless. It’s pretty clear that’s all that is really important to you, just scoring some political points for your team against the other team. Well no one else here is playing that game.
@jammyjaybird Actually Jammy I am not a Republicrat or a Demoplican. I have explained this before. You are attempting to label, discredit and dehumanize me so you can feel better about advocating for stealing from me and our other productive fellow countrymen in the name of “practical sympathy”. I am in fact what was once known as a Classical Liberal. I understand that maximum human happiness and prosperity comes with maximum individual liberty. Holding me in bondage by forcing me to hand over a portion of the proceeds of engaging in a common occupation by right, which is what a direct wage tax is, takes away my happiness and prosperity. That sir is a direct violation of my Creator endowed rights. Further it is a violation of the Constitutional prohibition on involuntary servitude. All of your “progressive” side’s circular logic, straw-men, ad hominem, obfuscation and sophistry notwithstanding.
The most important thing your Wikipedia reference blatantly omits is how the current system of health insurance came about. In the 1930s due to wage and price controls, employers were having a hard time attracting the skills and talent they needed from their competitors. Since they weren’t allowed to compete with higher wages, they offered other benefits such as paid health insurance, sick leave, vacation and pensions. It was government screwing around with the free market that caused private enterprise to find a way around these artificial stumbling blocks. These things became thoroughly entrenched as “entitlements” in the American psyche because of government policies and now people like you think everyone should have them, regardless of their ability to pay for them.
And spare me the bleeding heart bullshit about saving lives. Your wing of that large predatory bird we call government has done a remarkably good job of snuffing the lives of countless humans, both born and unborn, in the past few decades alone. Not that the so-called “right wing” hasn’t (there’s plenty of blame to be placed on both “sides”). Your camp touts the virtues of abortion on demand, which is no less the murder of children than the practice of Moloch. And it is done for the same reason: to secure the future prosperity of the parent(s). How do you square that with your “practical sympathy”? The so-called “right wing” (i.e. neo-con war-mongers) prefer to wait until the children are born and then lob cruise missiles at them or snuff them with drone strikes. It’s okay though, because those aren’t “our” children. Our children are provided with weapons and allowed to traipse off to foreign lands where they can attempt to directly kill foreigners who have done nothing to us. They do stand a good chance of being maimed and dying at the hands of those same foreigners who rightfully and forcefully object to the presence of imperial invadors, but that’s a sacrifice the military / industrial complex is willing to make.
Thales is right. You are, as far as I can tell, the only one here who is still a “true believer” in the false dichotomy of D vs. R. The “elite” on both sides of the aisle send their children to the same private schools (with armed guards), belong to the same private clubs and secret societies, eat at the same restaurants and rub shoulders in the same cloak rooms. And the key thing almost all of them share is that they do nothing productive and require a never ending stream of our stolen wealth to support them. I find it disheartening that someone who seems as intelligent as you can’t see through this. But hey, enjoy your delusion, as you blindly stumble along advocating that government do more, with more of our money to strip us of more of our rights. The whole time they are fleecing us they are laughing at people like you who support them, all the way to the bank.
Your position is like the old time snake oil salesman. When we’ve had grandma on snake oil for a long time and she doesn’t get better the solution is to give her more snake oil. Then when grandma dies, your position is she just didn’t get enough snake oil. It never seems to cross your mind that (a) the snake oil itself may be toxic, and (b) that there are viable alternative treatments. There are only two ways to approach these perceived public problems in your world-view: your way and the wrong way. You still fail to directly address my most basic position: that direct taxation is theft and giving (part of) the loot to people who didn’t earn it is conversion. In your mind you are right, we are wrong and no one is going to confuse you with the facts. Confirmation bias, thy name is @jammyjaybird.
@jammyjaybird With respect to CHIP funding, if you and your camp feel so strongly about what “may” happen (did you read the article or just cite it?), feel free to put your money where your mouth is. Go out and buy health insurance for one or more these poor unfortunates as an example for the rest us. I’m sure that if you get together with all your collectivist friends and pitch in you can take care of this shortfall and feel really good about yourselves at the same time. You could even do it through crowd funding and possibly come up with more money than the gun-vermin can since they won’t be skimming off the top. Go on. No one’s stopping you. Or would that solution prove just how much your camp really cares about “the children”? I will say that your ilk are very generous…with other people’s money, lol.
Guest last edited by
@ainigmaris-thales They’re animals anyway, let them lose their souls
@ainigmaris-thales Trolly Trollery here, with a public service announcement on behalf of the JLN (Jamster Lampoon Network). After careful consideration and based on the Jamster’s past posts, we here at JLN must applaud the Jamster for truth in advertising. Look closely at his avatar:
Now let’s think back on his posts about his experience with one woman in particular. A woman who, by his own admission, made an ass out of him. Now he posts under an avatar of…a woman’s ass! Talk about wearing a badge of distinction proudly! Which also explains a lot about his political position (hint: sideways with a crack in it, lol). Thanks from all the staff here at JLN for your candor in telling us who you really are!
GhostOfJefferson last edited by
@jammyjaybird Wrong. Socialism is society’s (government’s) seizing of the means of production. Insurance is none of those.
Dude, seriously, you don’t even understand the basic definition of what you pimp for? I’m thinking that Iattacku is right, that you’re trolling for effect or fun.